Speaker 2 00:17 And I'm John Moscow. Welcome to ethical schools where we discuss strategies for creating inclusive and equitable sports and youth programs. It helps students to develop both commitment and capacity to build ethical institutions.
Speaker 3 00:31 I guess today's GLE, JIA teaches special needs students at the earth school, a progressive public school located in the East village. She's been teaching in New York city schools since 2001 she ran for president of the United Federation of teachers the UFT in 2016 as part of the movement of rank and file educators are more caucus and for vice president of special education in 2019 she was also the green party candidate for Lieutenant governor in New York in 2018 welcome, Julia.
Speaker 4 01:05 Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 01:08 Do you, what do you see as the most critical issues that children in special education and their families and teachers in New York city schools face now?
Speaker 4 01:17 I guess one of the main issues right now, it is adequate, you know, resources and funding for programs I would say. And there just seems to be a lack of parody, um, across the city. A lack of understanding, you know, it's a huge system, but at the same time, the priorities have not been on the actual needs of the students rather than on, on their achievement. And all of the tools and metrics that go along with that.
Speaker 3 01:46 Jay, you've criticized the fair funding formula for schools as short changing children and special education teachers. What is the fair funding formula and why is that unfair?
Speaker 4 01:58 Well, that's fair. Student funding for me, like came, um, along when Bloomberg became mayor and he appointed Joel Klein and he implemented this formula that was very different from what it was, you know, the old way of funding. So in the past Corp had two separate allocation on one for operational costs. And the other part of the way schools are funded, um, was based on teacher salary. And that was because we have a contract, um, salary scales. And we had a system that actually valued veteran educators with the fair student funding formula. Now, I mean, the exception is in the name, right? Uh, it was anything but favor because you had allocations based on the number of students. So let's say, you know, a student had, uh, each student received about $8,000 a student with special needs. We get 1.5 that amount or student with, um, who are, who is ENL. The problem with this formula is that it does not take into account experienced veteran educators, unrelated service providers. Uh, none of that is really taken into account in that kind of funding formula.
Speaker 5 03:17 So a question, if I remember correctly, and I may not, that the justification for the fair student funding was that the more experienced teachers tended to be located in what were considered more desirable or easier for schools to teach in. So you had, for example, a district like district two in Manhattan or district three in Manhattan. Um, we tend to have lots and lots of very experienced teachers, whereas districts like maybe district seven or district eight in the Bronx might have a lot fewer. So I think wasn't the original justification that this was to balance out the differentials in, in salaries among schools.
Speaker 4 03:58 I think the, if that's what was being purported, I hadn't heard of that. But, um, in either case there was no a of work on figuring out the analysis piece. So you're trying to solve a problem they didn't quite understand. Right. Why are those schools in the Bronx and the less affluent? Well this tricks or parts of the city harder to staff without asking those questions and really digging deep. They were, you know, just like a lot of the policies these days, they are bandaids or <inaudible> you know, solution and it if you really want, if they really wanted to fix this, um, they would have done a deeper analysis.
Speaker 5 04:43 What would be a better way of doing it? Um, do you have a sense of that? Have people worked out an alternative formula that we'd been in fact a fair funding formula?
Speaker 4 04:53 You know, that's a really great question. I think funding in and of itself can't be answered in Noah singularly. I mean with understanding if there is an issue of staffing, you know, harder to what they call harder to staff schools. Um, if there is a problem with that, figuring out why that is. And I can almost guarantee though, find holes in those areas are parts of the most segregated. Mmm. You know, our city's the most segregated and disproportionately the families live in poverty
Speaker 4 05:28 and with lack of access to resources. So then what funding looks like in that area has to go to address those issues. And a lot of those issues are outside of the schools realm of, you know, being able to fix. However, if we think of our schools as, you know, a cornerstone of society, then making sure we have meals, programs after school programs, adequate arts education and extracurricular things that families might, um, cause they can't afford those violin lessons or the piano lessons outside of school and what a lot of the more affluent families can't afford. Um, making sure that there's parity in those ways. I think funding has to take into consideration valuing experienced educators, especially in those schools. And I've had experiences where, well, one in particular, an administrator once told me with this funding formula, you know, I can get, I know that I can afford two new teachers for the price of one veteran educator.
Speaker 5 06:31 So what I hear you saying is that the issues of that, the current fair funding formula is deficient because it disincentivizes if that's a word, um, schools having experienced educators because basically they figured they can get cheaper teachers. That the issue of how to equalize experienced educators across the system needs to be resolved through a deeper analysis of the reasons for inequities and ways of resolving them not through this methodology with the funding formula.
Speaker 4 07:13 Right, right.
Speaker 5 07:14 Are there funding formulas <inaudible> you know, of that would help in that process? Or is it just a completely different kind of their system?
Speaker 4 07:24 I don't know of other funny firms I own. I'm only familiar with what we currently have and what we had before. Um, and actually the current system that we have that this quote unquote fair student funding formula is what's being used in a lot of districts across the country now. Um, there's a pattern, there's definitely a pattern of this per people funding formula that does not take into account staffing and resources.
Speaker 3 07:55 Yeah. Getting back to students with special needs. New York has implemented integrated co-teaching as a model in place of many of the <inaudible> what used to be self-contained special ed classes. What is integrated co-teaching, what are its strengths and what do you think still needs to be improved?
Speaker 4 08:14 I started teaching in self-contained district committee five in May, 2001 and then at about 2005 I started doing integrated co-teaching. Back then it was the CTT or co-teaching co T T team teaching model. They keep changing the acronyms hard to keep up. But I've been an ICT teacher since and you know, having taught in both spaces, uh, the self contained cross usually 12 students with disabilities, small class size is the idea, the needs or you know, more concentrated. Um, in the classroom there should be opportunities for students to get more individualized attention. One teacher and usually a parent, a paraprofessional
Speaker 5 09:06 and there still are many self contained classrooms
Speaker 4 09:09 there. There are, but there are far fewer in district schools now. The move has been in the last decade to move towards more integrated classrooms. And you know, there's, I would actually say <inaudible> that's ideal, right? To full time teachers, uh, working together. This is in the ideal world, right? A general education teacher and a special education teacher who are co-planning and co-creating and you know, co-teaching, everything together, which requires a lot of time. Um, not just in the past planning part, but in actual developing that relationship. And then, um, ideally the school culture, you have an administrator who understands the values being set forth in, you know, with ICT models that we're trying to move towards a place or students are able to work with their general education peers to emulate kind of what we want to see out in the world. Right. Acceptance, inclusivity and all of that.
Speaker 4 10:19 And the great thing about it, and I've been doing, and I've, I actually did get my leadership degree at bank street in special education to be an administrator specialization in special education because there weren't very many administrators with special education background in New York city. I didn't pursue that ride state teaching, at least for now. I love it. But you know, what I learned there was immensely different from what I think other places are preparing and how other administrators are being prepared in a more managerial style. So school culture really, really matters in order for integrated co-teaching classrooms to thrive. And even in those instances, you still have students who need a smaller class size. Again, you can get a smaller class size in an ICT, but we have a system that does not quite value that.
Speaker 5 11:15 So the things that would work better, we'd be to have smaller class sizes in ICT situations to have administrators who have stronger backgrounds or a stronger understanding of special education. Mmm. Are there issues of resources within the classroom?
Speaker 4 11:41 Absolutely. You know, with this, you know, again, I would say class, smaller class sizes across the board. Um, research has shown like the one of the biggest in school factors that affect students and their wellbeing. Mmm. His class size. And particularly for students with special needs. Um, it can be really overwhelming to have a teacher that's completely a spread thin or teachers spread thin by the sheer number of students that have needs. Because even in an ICT classroom, there are students who are general education who have needs. It's not like they are perfectly fine, um, 19 years of my experiences then I wish I could give each one of my students their own individualized education plan to support them. But yeah, there's a definite lack of resource. And the disparity, again across our district or across the <inaudible> city, <inaudible> is wide. I haven't, shouldn't really progressive public school that attracts a lot of, a lot more like middle class families. We don't do letter grades. We write narrative reports. Uh, we believe in bridge classes because based on developmental band. So I teach fourth and fifth grade for my classes, fourth half classes, fifth, and we have a parent association that works very hard to provide arts programming. And you won't find that in schools where, you know, the population, it has a higher poverty level. Um, you know, and in just places where there's a really high concentration of poverty and special education needs. Hmm.
Speaker 5 13:26 What are some of the success stories where these programs have really made the difference in children's lives?
Speaker 4 13:36 I would say at their either success stories you'll find in pockets across city and wherever you find you'll find them. Uh, it's in communities that are really strong where there is a lot of outreach with parents, particularly not just in progressive schools. I find a lot of our progressive schools have very strong communities that really support students with special needs. But there are places like, I know I'm Brooklyn deepen Brooklyn and in Queens, um, where, yeah, particularly districts 75 in the last 10 years I've noticed a lot of um, resources being allocated to make sure that the buildings are functional.
Speaker 5 14:20 Could you tell our listeners what districts 75 is?
Speaker 4 14:23 District 75 is the citywide special education district. Um, in the past that you include a lot of students with severe emotional delays, disabilities. But the last 10 years they tried to move away from that and keep the certain five primarily students with severe developmental and cognitive delays.
Speaker 5 14:43 So you were saying that you've seen a lot of focus on making sure the buildings are in good shape
Speaker 4 14:48 <inaudible> new buildings, new facilities to address some of the physical needs of those students, ramps, wheelchairs, elevators, labs that are accessible arts rooms. Just a greater accessibility <inaudible> like 15 or so years ago near was listed as one of the worst in terms of providing students with adequate resources and for Stu and placement
Speaker 5 15:18 and that that's improved is what you're saying?
Speaker 4 15:20 Yes, yes.
Speaker 5 15:22 When we spoke a few days ago, you mentioned that many students who've experienced generational trauma and stigmatization find themselves re traumatized and re stigmatized in school. Can you talk about this a little bit and some examples?
Speaker 4 15:37 Yeah, I mean, trauma in terms of the system that we live in, you know, we can go way back to the roots of slavery and what happened to the indigenous people of this country, but those things are lasting and because of institutionalized racism, okay. We have a system that actually disproportionately over refer students who are black and Latino boys. Um, girls are on the rise and if you look at the New York city data, you can look at the state data as well. There's overwhelmingly disproportionate number of those students being referred and also for behavioral issues, social, emotional, behavioral issues. And then when they come to school we have, you know, they are concentrated in, in the neighborhoods. Um, test scores, right, are reflective of their condition and then those schools are then punished for having low test scores. And then there's an increased pressure on those schools to test prep, to do away with arts, physical education, recess time, all the things that we know children need in order to thrive and develop. And the focus has become on test prep. And I know firsthand personally what that's like. I taught in a school like that and have colleagues, friends who teach around the city who feel like my experience right now at a very progressive hole where we have high opt out rates and push a more progressive curriculum and pedagogy. It's a luxury that's a luxury. And it sounds like a dream to many of my colleagues in the park districts out in the outer boroughs.
Speaker 5 17:30 I have a question cause you mentioned over referral, I mean a long time issue with over referral has been of language minority students where the fact that their dominant language is not English is interpreted as a special needs issue. Have you seen, what's your sense of the status of that now is better? Have
Speaker 3 17:50 you noticed a change or just see much the same as an issue?
Speaker 4 17:54 It does seem like that kind of culture shifted. Um, there is a greater awareness that a student who's learning English or a new immigrant and getting acclimated, that that doesn't necessarily mean that they have special needs. And I know that personally with our English as a second language teacher at our school, she's very careful about how assessments are used to determine, you know, whether or not a student qualifies for special needs. Communicating directly with her is very important. But I do know that I have friends in the international high schools. Then they get students who've had a lot of interrupted education in their life, gone years with, you know, having, not having gone to school, they are refugees. And so that's another set of complexity that also has to get taken into account.
Speaker 3 18:52 Chia, you mentioned that you actually been a witness to the school to prison pipeline. Could you elaborate on that a little? I mean, how does the school system maintain this pipeline and
Speaker 4 19:03 how could the broken, Oh, that's the million dollar question. I feel like we've all been focused on. I actually, well when I first started teaching I was in district 75 school, 14 to 21 year old students, mostly from the Bronx. And there's all the three shirts to show that third grade reading test scores are good indicator of whether or not students end up in prison later on in life. And so many of my students there, it was basically what they called like a lockdown situation. So they got to leave and they go home. But they were in and out of incarceration and trouble with the law. Uh, many of them were illiterate and we were told this was the first year of no child left behind. And I remember asking if I could, you know, teach foundations, which is uh, or Wilson reading program, not foundation clinicians, it's for the little kids.
Speaker 4 20:06 But Wilson's reading program was initially designed for adults who are literate and had gotten some training. And I'd asked if I could do that and they said, no, no, you have to stick to the Regents curriculum. I was there, their science teacher. Um, yeah, so they, at that time they were taking RCTs, uh, Regents exams and I said, but they cannot access this tax, let alone develop the background knowledge in order to understand these concepts. They're very like literal gaps. Can we focus on giving them some literacy skills and basic life skills while we're doing this? And I was told no, which was such a, because when I asked those guys, they, they wanted to, they wanted to learn how to fill out a job application, how to read a contract or you know, read certain things. And I'll tell you, I did that kind of on my own time with them. Yeah. Lunchtimes afterschool. But the fact that that wasn't a priority and instead the testing had become the priority, the reagents that, you know, of course no one showed up on those testing dates.
Speaker 5 21:18 Wow. UN on November 2nd more Nightcore the New York collective of radical educators, black lives mattered in schools, teachers unite and several other groups hosted a culturally responsive and sustainable education framework, curriculum fair and town hall. What's your sense of the current status of the CRS framework in city schools and how does it impact students with special needs?
Speaker 4 21:44 Uh, yeah, so our new chancellor has put out some really great initiatives, a lot of culturally relevant pedagogy and responsive teaching coming out and implicit racial bias training, which is fantastic, but it contradicts a lot of the <inaudible> these other policies that are coming out. For instance, I don't know if you've heard of the map testing and I can't remember what the acronym is. The same test that Seattle Washington had than Chicago actually in Seattle. They boycotted this test
Speaker 5 22:21 and actually it wasn't, um, just to add a plug, Jesse Hagopian, who we interviewed a couple of weeks ago who's with black lives matters in schools. It was like one of the leaders of that successful effort. So everybody should go back and listen to Jesse as well
Speaker 4 22:38 do because that, you know, I became a conscientious objector and we connected through that way. Is that around the same time, like we found each other and started commiserating on how to fight back. But you have <inaudible> this rhetoric, you know, I'm always skeptical about anything top-down, so we always have to find a way through the grassroots to maintain a sense of realness and depth to the work that educators have already been doing. But the fact that there's this talk, this discussion and possibly training coming out of the department of education around cultural responsive education, the curriculum <inaudible> on the one hand, great, but then you know just about a month ago they announced that 77 of the most struggling schools and we know where they are in the city are going to have to administer these map tests. These periodic map tests, several a year. They're computerized, they're adaptive. They take up hours of kids sitting in front of a screen and then of course the focus is then on getting those students to do well on those math tests. I feel like that's a complete contradiction to any move for <inaudible> implicit racial bias trainings and cultural responsiveness and who's most impacted. It's always black and Brown students who are disproportionately referred for special education. It's always our students with the most oppressive, getting more
Speaker 5 24:22 and having the, I understand that some of those schools that they're listing as having to implement the map ones are actually, some of the schools that have high opt out rates are in fact doing the kind of education that the chancellor says at the state says they'd like to see more of it's, is that correct?
Speaker 4 24:41 That's correct. I bet in communication, we're talking right now about what to do because there are districts, you know, talk about the map tests a little bit. There's like an entire gesture, I think it's 14, um, which covers like Bed-Stuy and I think Brownsville a little bit, but they were already implementing the map. Um, I didn't know this. They were already doing that. Administrators are being incentivized to do this and so you have to kind of wonder, you know, what's behind it. And then those opt out schools that are in there, having spoken to them, they're scrambling to figure out how to fight back against this because it's taking up so much of the time and they're not getting very many answers from the city. And it's the city that's right. Imposing that it's not from the state. Yes. Or on the state list, the CSI, the state lists. But the testing is from the city, from the chancellor directly from the chancellor himself, and they're not getting very many answers about alternatives or authentic assessment. So there's just something really sketchy going on.
Speaker 5 25:52 Hmm. Yeah. You're a long time union activist. What does the UFT doing well to support students in special education and their teachers? And what could it be doing better?
Speaker 4 26:05 Oh, I'm such a big picture thinker. I don't think we're doing enough. I don't think our union is doing what it needs to, to fight back against this. Um, I'm talking about the disproportionality and impact of these policies. They have not spoken out against the map. They have not made any moves against this. Certainly they were not even supporting the, the notion of culturally responsive education and pedagogy. And there are initiatives happening, private and public partnership initiatives happening in the city that our union has not taken any position on. High-stakes, standardized testing, teacher accountability, all of these untested systems that have had such a detrimental impact on our students with special needs. Not to mention that all of our students and our union has not had, you know, at the forefront of it, strong fight against her strong position until there's a grassroots wave and then it takes it on. So I'd like to see more listening happening at the union leadership end of things and less Polish politicking. Is there stuff that union is doing well? Is there stuff that you've seen you've seen progress with? I mean it's supporting teachers individually, pushing on thesis over the burden of paperwork. You know, I think those kinds of things. I'm handling grievances or a special education violation. I think our arguing, you know, it takes on, those are very individual and I think we need to pick on a more systemic, really values based approach.
Speaker 2 27:58 Is there anything you'd like to add that we haven't covered?
Speaker 7 28:02 Well, I feel like we covered a lot. I just feel that there needs to be more in person discussions. And I'd love for, you know, to invite people to more general meetings. You can find us on Facebook with Lynette Frank and Paul educators. Our next one is actually November 23rd at Jenny grad center and you can look up, look us up on the web and find out dates and times.
Speaker 2 28:29 Thank you so much, Julie. Thank you so much and thank you listeners for joining us. We'd like to hear how you've incorporated ideas you've heard on our podcast and read on the ethical schools, blah. Also, if there are topics you'd like to hear more about, please email us at hosts an ethical schools dot board that's
[email protected] we also offer professional development for schools and after school programs in the New York city area. Contact us for details. You can check out prior episodes and articles on our site or on Facebook and Twitter at ethical schools and Instagram editor and social media manager is Amanda denti until next week.
Speaker 6 29:13 <inaudible>.
